8.10.07

סימאָן דובנאָװ (Семен Маркович Дубнов)

"At the very moment when the strength and fertility of the Jewish mind reached the culminating point, occurred a political revolution--the period of homeless wandering began. It seemed as though, before scattering the Jewish people to all ends of the earth, the providence of history desired to teach it a final lesson, to take with it on its way. It seemed to say: "Now you may go forth. Your character has been sufficiently tempered; you can bear the bitterest of hardships. You are equipped with an inexhaustible store of energy, and you can live for centuries, yea, for thousands of years, under conditions that would prove the bane of other nations in less than a single century. State, territory, army, the external attributes of national power, are for you superfluous luxury. Go out into the world to prove that a people can continue to live without these attributes, solely and alone through strength of spirit welding its widely scattered particles into one firm organism!"- And the Jewish people went forth and proved it."
-Simon Dubnow

4 comments:

The W said...

I'm not sure how much I beleive this, because I see myself as Yiddish as opposed to Hebrew (nationally). Yes Jews in the most general sense have outlived most nations, but i feel that during the Diaspora Jewish nationality went from Hebrew, to a unique mix of whatever land they went to, and Jewish culture. Thus after a thousand years Jews from Poland and Jews from Yemen have a very broad national orientation (going back to Hebrew times) but have split culturall/nationally to some extent.

Jasper Yate said...

A lot of what you've been posting and saying recently brings me back to the subject of what part of 'Jewishness' you dedicate yourself to. It seems that, from what I have said and gathered for myself as the most prevalent reason, that it would follow to respect that somewhat blending of cultures of the different Jewish 'nations' in different parts of the planet, is that what you're alluding to here? I mean, it seems to be part of the Jewish culture, and moreover a component of the pride that you feel as a Jew, that Jews are historically (as far as I know) discriminated and separated and remain proud and faithful and, albeit the 'sects', true to their heritage and beliefs - isn't the widespread-ness, which inevitably will result in a certain amount of blending, and eventually evolution into different types and cultures of Jewishness part of this pride in the oneness of Judaism? There may be different sects of Yiddishists and Hebrews and the other one's whos names I've forgotten but they all take pride in the name Jew and the same general doctrine of Judaism they just interpret it differently - which in my opinion, as would be the general metaphysical perspective on the issue, should be the case with every individual. Anyway I got off topic a little... If the question is of whether Jews did stick together and outlive most if not all other religions and cultures of it's time, I think the answer is yes in a certain sense, and it's that very same sense of diversity within the Jewish 'nation' (i put that in quotes because I'm not sure if it's the correct term) that gives all Jews pride in their culture.

Now with that said, I gotta speak my mind for a second; It's made clear, and people can see it, that Jewish culture has lasted an extraordinarily long time through a lot of harships and all the scattering of cultures and sects and all that - but I cannot leave that without my 2 cents that it had it's run and appreciating it and being proud that it is one's heritage is a respectable act, but the whole arena of organized religion is very apparently a worn out tool. We certainly needed these religions and cultures in order to get to where we are, but now that we are 4-500 years into the age of not science but inductive/deductive reason and intelligible discourse in all arenas the tool of organized religion is quick becoming archaic; even the most indoctrinated christian fundamentalists are becoming interpretalists, it's a long standing habit, but it's being broken and it's because the age of intelligence is too much for the archaic tradition of organized religion to withstand. Now, I'm not saying that it's wrong to be Jewish or to go to temple and all that, but it's at the point where it's no longer intelligibly acceptable that religion be a childhood topic and a biased belief once the child reaches maturity as it once was accepted; and with that said, once religions really begin to fade out of 'power' they'll crumble because the likelihood that the millions upon millions of christians will intelligibly come up with christian doctrine is really just impossible if they are not told that it's right as children. My point is that at least now at the beggining of when organized religion is really just hindering the world (I need only cite the wars and deaths the religious wars in the middle east are causing) it should at least become practice that only once a child has reached intellectual and emotional maturity that religion and philosophy (they become one thing at this point, religion is superstitious philosophy after all) should be presented to them and they can make an intelligible choice of their own. Until that point equal education of all cultures and base philosophy can be taught as well as whatever else which really isn't important now.

This has to me many advantages, but if the practice could reach as far as the middle east (yeah, right) not having 6 car bombers a day is worth it, either way it is stearing toward a more intelligible mindset for the world - imagine how many einsteins and kants and jesus' and ghandis there are out there that were just weren't educated enough or were so indoctrinated by their damn dogmatic religion that they blew themselves up. I watch t.v sometimes, mostly sports center, and when I see some people talk it just clicks sometimes that they could have been really great and influential people - just because I saw him yesterday, steve young is a good example; he's carismatic, he's well spoken, he's good looking so he would do well in some of the more dimwitted people's eye's who don't realize that something like that plays a part in their voting, and he's really very good at brushing off immature and unintelligible comments from emmit smith. This goes for all charismatic people, really, imagine had steve young been brought up in a culture of intelligence and prie in truth and intellectual appreciation of humanity, what kind of leader he could have been for a very large group of people - dude could probably be elected president now, but I mean someone as intelligent and well spoken and charismatic could have been a great thing for the world but he was brought up to think football. Even better, peyton manning, same deal, except he's ugly, but you can tell he's a genius, he's got an exceptional mind, but instead of producing for humanity he runs around throwing a ball and thanking GOD every 5 seconds. God made it okay that he used his head for football instead of the, given that god exists and cares, the people that god created. It makes no sense any way about it.

I rest my case this was far too much typing...

The W said...

im gonna respond from the bottom up. First, you've seen those commercials, Peyton was indoctrinated with football from a very young age. Probably in a way only comparable with his religion. Careerism at its finest (his father was a football player, so his profession, like his religion was begat upon him, predetermined).

There is a large problem with the thought behind this: "it should at least become practice that only once a child has reached intellectual and emotional maturity that religion and philosophy ...should be presented to them and they can make an intelligible choice of their own"

Think about it, you will then end up with two parents that have made similar decisions on this front. They will thus associate themselves with a culture that is concurrent with their belief's. Now they have a child, they cant avoid that child being sheilded from their culture and beliefs. I dont remember my mom taking me to the side one day and shaking me yelling "Your a Jew Your a Jew, if you do not accept the God of Abraham as your only God and follow his commandments then you will be expelled from your people Israel!". I simply absorbed the religion by experiancing it. I didnt go to Hebrew school until i was 8 or so. Unless these kids were sent away from civilization to be trained in philosophy and whatnot, then i would find it impossible that they would be able to avoid absorbing what their parents culture is. Plus its almost instinct to raise your kids to be like you (unless your a self loathing immigrant blinding by the false promises of your adapted country).

Im not so sure that the age of religion has come to the end. It seems that reason should be predominant but religion will remain a cultural phenomena for ever, just evolving as time goes on. Its already infinitely less poweverful than it was at the time of the Caliphate and later the Holy Roman Empire's reign over Europe. However, reason's supremacy gets complicated among isolated nations. For example, there is this nation of people in Venezuela that has only recently had its first contact with westerners. Are we to go into their society and tell them "No, your living wrong" and hand them some audio tapes of plato recorded in their language?

"isn't the widespread-ness, which inevitably will result in a certain amount of blending, and eventually evolution into different types and cultures of Jewishness part of this pride in the oneness of Judaism?"
you are correct, there is a pride (at least for me) in this fact.

"they just interpret it differently - which in my opinion, as would be the general metaphysical perspective on the issue, should be the case with every individual"
you are right. I like being able to read and decide on my own how im going to approach certain things. What i concider wrong and backwards are those people that dont take the time to study and continuing to ladidadi because thats the way to do it. People have free choice, but if youre going to concider yourself a member of a monotheistic religion with a strong history and large body of writings and interpretations, you are volutarily surrendering some of that free will. (This is what tends to frustrate me with my sister).

Unlike the church/old country, the various "sects" arent that intense in proscribing what you can and cant do. Ive never heard of a Conservitive Rabbi excommunicating someone (although i saw an excommunication staged in an old yiddish movie i watched, it was intense), there is no longer the power in the religious institutions to keep people in their place (i speak for conservative, reform, and reonstructionist). Thus, i can interpret the law the way i want to, and not really worry about getting kicked out, worse comes to worse i get questioned by the old people after the service about my sidelocks. You cant get to willy nlly though, cause you need at least 10 people to hold most services, and if your being crazy people arent going to join you. Judaism is all about the group...
Im positive that ultra/orthodox communities in places like Brooklyn still maintain huge power structures that keep people in their place (with or against their will). But i dont know enough about them to rant...

" it's that very same sense of diversity within the Jewish 'nation' (i put that in quotes because I'm not sure if it's the correct term) that gives all Jews pride in their culture."

id say thats a big part of it. Nation is a complicated term. Personally i see all Jews as a people. And then the various ethnic groups of Jews as nations (using Zhitlovsky's definition: “A nation is a group of people that in the course of many generations has explained for itself all cultural questions common to humanity, and has thereby explained some cultural questions differently from other groups of people...and therefore elaborated distinct national forms of creativity, a distinct 'national' intellectual/spiritual or physical type that passes from generation to generation.”) In "The Revolutionary Dispatch" i explain why i dont consider America a nation, but rather just a country...

Jasper Yate said...

my answer wants to be long winded but ill keep it short. the problem isn't there. this is a hypothetical situation, unfortunatly too many people are so involved and ignorant of anything but their religions that this could never come to fruition. but if it were to happen, it would be because all parents would have come to a complete appreciation of reason and humanity, and when these are acheived beliefs derived from them are bound to be mild and only in line with what is good for humanity. so the children of these people will have no trickle down besides the appreciation for reason and humanity.

i cannot see from pure reason some of the religious practices that are around to keep people powerless and in check arising. no educated person will find that better for the individuals or the whole of humanity to be confined and controlled by superstition. the real problem is that most of the people in the world are so comfortable with what they've always believe that they've become cowards and refuse on any grounds to accept objectivity of the existence.